Write a freeware alternative, can we do it?

[Xt]

In terms of software I have Visual Studio 6.0 SP5, which isn't much use for PPC development but I have already downloaded eVC++ 4 SP2 and the WM2003 SDK from MS which is usable.

I have Visual Studio 6.0 SP5 and download eVC++3 and PPC2002 SDK because it says that Visual Studio .NET is required to use the WM2003 SDK (and I don't think eVC++ 4.0 works with the PPC2002 SDK).  If you do find that eVC++ 4.0 works with VS 6.0, let me know.

fishboy,
I've been using visual studio 6.0 with evc++4 and WM2003 and it seem to work fine.

[Dav]

Sounds like there's a lot of serious talk here.  I would suggest we identify - not necessarily migrate to - another site away from this board to house this thing ASAP.  It would be pretty dissapointing to get some momentum going then lose the only method we have of organizing.

[Morpheus]

Well if we go to somewhere like sourceforge it provides message boards etc. so we wont need to set one up ourselves. However as a contingency plan if this site does disappear before we all get organised, then a post or PM  at  Brighthand directed at "Morpheus" will usually find me and we can then reorganise from there. We should still have a bit of time here to get organised and build up numbers before then. Timmy everything helps,  I've got the artistic ability of a squashed hedgehog and assuming this takes off once we do get something going we will need some testers.

Morpheus

[SacredCow]

hi all,

would it be worth setting up chat via irc to do some initial planning w/out the delay of a board?

just a thought.

[mikedice]

The company I work for is looking into WinCE / PocketPC development.  Here is what I've learned so far.

To target Pocket PC 2000 and 2002 devices:
Use eMbedded Visual Tools 3.0 to write unmanaged code for devices based on Windows CE 3.0 such as the Pocket PC 2000 and Pocket PC 2002 using Microsoft eMbedded Visual Basic® 3.0.

To target Pocket PC 2003 devices:
If you need native code support, you need to use eMbedded Visual C++® 4.0 (with SP2), and for managed code (.NET) development you will need Visual Studio .NET 2003 and the Microsoft .NET Compact Framework.

Microsoft Windows .NET Compact Framework—The .NET Compact Framework is in ROM in all new Pocket PC 2003 devices, and can be installed in RAM in Pocket PC 2000 and Pocket PC 2002 devices.
Microsoft Visual Studio® .NET 2003—The Pocket PC 2003 SDK integrates into the Visual Studio .NET 2003 IDE and can be used from both Microsoft Visual Basic® .NET and Microsoft Visual C#™ .NET.


For more details, look at the following links:
eMbedded Visual Tools FAQ
What's New for Developers in Windows Mobile 2003-based Pocket PC
eMbedded Visual C++ 4.0

[alpax]

To target Pocket PC 2003 devices:
If you need native code support, you need to use eMbedded Visual C++® 4.0 (with SP2), and for managed code (.NET) development you will need Visual Studio .NET 2003 and the Microsoft .NET Compact Framework.

There is no actual need to use eMVT 4.0 or .NET for PPC2003 (WM2003). Applications created with eMVT 3.0 for PPC2002 work on WM2003 just fine! (I already have a couple ) No .Net please! It's slow and there is still a lot of PPC2002 devices around, which require installing of .Net CF. That was the main thing personally I didn't like in T+ 0.11.

And I agree, XML would be nice format for a config file. A little bit heavy to be edited as a plain text on a device, but still good. And no registry please! That's another major thing personally I didn't like in T+ 0.11

I can try to participate in the development a little, though I don't have a lot of spare time . But let me know if the project will be started on SourceForge or somewhere else.

By the way, AFAIR CalendarPlus (CalPlus?) Today plugin had its sources available. It may be used as a starting point, I guess.

[dp1don]

http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dnnetcomp/html/TodayScrn.asp

Someone earlier mentioned a link on DevBuzz for this article, but said it was broken.

A little judicious Googlin' and viola, the article is found.

No coding experience whatsoever, but I've been a Tech Writer for three years and am willing to work on the documentation.

DGS

[argh2000]

I got not much of programmoing experience..just a short programme done before.But I will try to help watever way I can

[Timmy]

Ideally we need more programmers if we want to get a relatively quick release.

Morpheus,

I'm not a programmer at all, as I said before. But,  a question for you: is there something to do with the program Forward Pass on:
http://www.forwardpass.com/a.cgi?Download
I hoped to give a usefull tip?!?

Timmy

[Xt]

Ok guys, We've all been anxious to help out where we can but, we need to come together.  Like others I've offered my resources where I could and a web site, but I really haven't rec'd any direct responses.

The way I see Lt's TodayAdv., It's going to be an as is program when you buy it and the only way to really change the skin  would be to buy one.  It's an option and I wouldn't say I wouldn't buy it, but it's hard to swallow after the original TodayPlus.  
Todayplus  gave us an excellent app. and I don't want to see this motivation for development fade away.  I waited as long as I could, but felt strongly that we had to make a move. I took the next step and created a site to try and further this project. It's called "TodaysXtra" (should be up in a little while, I'm tweaking).  All of you are very welcome to join the board and hopefully in a fruitfull project  

I plan on learning this stuff if not only for TodaysXtra, but for my personal PPC and my IT career.  I work in the IT industry and wear many hats, but windows programmer isn't one of them and I know it's just a matter of time.  Anyway that's where I'm heading and I hope to see you there.  The website has a quick flash.swf at the begining and redirects you to the board or you can click the skip intro link at the bottom.  I know it moves a little fast but I'll tweak it later.  Please visit,  It's free and say Hi and remember that one tip of yours could save the day.  It's your move.

Thanks to Eitel, SRS and all on this board.  

http://www.todaysxtra.com

[Xt]

Oh, the flash intro has a melody stream so please watch your volume.
Thanks
http://www.todaysxtra.com

[tundrwd]

I've watched this with a bit of interest, and I'll throw my .02 in:

Background: I've been writing code for just about 30 years, and doing it professionally for 23 years.  I've worked in several languages (several assembly languages, C, C++, BASIC, PASCAL, ......), too many systems (mostly micros, but several minis), many operating systems.  I've been project lead and analyst, etc., etc. blah, blah.

So, while I'm still learning about life and the pursuit of happiness and programming (you never know it all), I'll throw in a bit of advice:

1.  Please - only real programmers need apply.  This type of project (Today Screen Plugin) is EXTREMELY picky about it's operation and timing.  Not too much different than the old TSRs (terminate and stay resident) programs of DOS.  This is not a trivial task, and isn't something for a beginner to cut their teeth on.  If you want to learn to code, and code for the PPC, then write your own application, get your feet wet, and see if programming is the life for you.

2.  Write it in C, C++ - PLEASE FORGET .NET!  It's a pig, and in another year or two (if this new project is still active), you'll get to rewrite it when MS comes out with the "next best way to program".  Yes, .NET provides some nice wrappers, etc. - code your own or live without.  You've been warned.

3.  Configuration file should probably be in standard Windows .INI type format (for a SIMPLE TD+ alternative), or in XML for something more flexible, or "roll your own" for something akin to what SRS was creating (flexible skins, control logic, etc.)

4.  If you can't stand the heat - DON'T GO IN THE KITCHEN!  People will criticize the code, it's operation, and wonder what idiot could have come up with THAT idea.  GET OVER IT.  If this was the main reason SRS left the project - I'd suggest he find another mode of making a living.  Users and testers are always trying to "kill your baby".  EVERYONE always has a better idea, and knows more than you about programming (especially if they don't program).  Doesn't mean you have to like it, but get used to it quick.

5.  I'll probably step on toes with this one, but - IF ENGLISH is your native language, and you can't spell, and write coherently (generally correct grammer) - please don't program.  Programming is tedious detailed work, and it doesn't speak well of your coding and thought processes if your spelling is atrocious and grammer is poor.

6.  If you collaborate, ONE PERSON IN CHARGE, AND WHOSE VOICE IS THE FINAL AUTHORITY!  Also, I wouldn't suggest more than 6 people to work on the project, and 2 or 3 would probably be better.  You need the one person to be the tie-breaker when disagreements come up (and they will).  This one person needs to be an experienced coder and project leader (or a natural leader).  This person will be responsible for handing out tasks, trying to coordinate the tasks, and helping others out with coding problems.  Also should be the person to do code review.

7.  If you won't promise to dedicate one year of your life to the task - don't volunteer.  Nothing is worse for a collaborative, "gratis" project, than for someone to lose interest and feel like they "have to" continue.

8.  SET DEFINABLE, ATTAINABLE GOALS!  AND DON'T KEEP CHANGING THE DESIGN!  This was one of the issues I brought up to SRS back in early September.  It is frustrating for users and contributors to keep trying to change their contribution (skins)  to meet ever-changing syntax and new features.  Decide what's in a release AND STICK TO IT.  Then work on the next release, while still addressing bugs in the last release.  DO NOT SUPPORT MORE THAN 2 RELEASES AT A TIME!  In other words, if there have been 10 releases since .0.7.1, don't support the old release.  If the bug still exists, fix it in the latest release (and the beta).  You'll go nuts if you try to support too many releases.

9.  One person who is an excellent communicator, and possibly tester.  This person is the sole go-between between the users and the developers.  Not entirely necessary, but it relieves the developers from having to answer lots of tedious email (most of which was already answered), and stick to what they do best - develop.

10.  Suggested breakup:
    1)  Configuration parser.  Don't know how much overhead yacc and lex would add, but it's a significant help in parsing (And no, a standard XML parser won't really work.  (If you don't understand that - you don't understand creating languages and writing parsers/compilers).  It also helps you to make sure your config file syntax isn't ambiguous.
    2)  Skeletal framework for placement of other logical sections (basic control loop, timing triggers, hook into Today Screen, etc.)
    3)  Weather section
    4)  RSSS section/parser
    5)  Calendar/Appointments/tasks section
    6)  Program/link launcher section
    7)  Hardware interface (for memory, etc.)
     Graphics - someone with REAL graphics skillls to create icons, graphics, etc. or someone to pool together public domain sources for use.

Don't reinvent the wheel!  Most of the basics here have been done in other places, and the code is either public domain or open source.  Obviously, it won't be a drop-in for a PPC, but it has most of the basics already handled.

I wish I could actually write some code, but I've got 2 other PPC coding projects I'd really love to have (even more than this app), and work on, for the last 2 years.  Fortunately (or unfortunately), I've reached the stage in life where programming is a way to earn a living, and doesn't consume every waking moment (especially those 96 hour-at-a-stretch moments) like it used to.

You can take these thoughts, or not.  From experience, however, I think you'll find that if you don't follow them, you'll look back on the project and wish you had.

caveat emptor, YMMV, batteries not included, limited lifetime warranty, etc., etc.

[Scotty]

........it doesn't speak well of your coding and thought processes if your spelling is atrocious and grammer is poor.

Sorry tundrwd, can't resist, the irony is too much.....you spelled "grammar" incorrectly....

Scotty

[tundrwd]

Dang it!  I just knew one would slip thru....  Ooops, there's another.

[Morpheus]

Well I thought I'd drop in before the weekend (where I will be mostly/completely offline).  Ok the plan is as follows (assuming everyone agrees). We need to start some initial planning/organisational stuff early next week sometime (just in case the board does go down and we loose contact). As suggested by SacredCow earlier this should probably be via a chat medium such IRC, ICQ etc.

It looks like heybear has grabbed the proverbial bull by the horns and setup a site so this is a definite start, although we may still need to setup a CVS repository or something similar to manage and track changes to any code/documentation that is produced.

tundrwd, by the looks of it there are only a handful of actual programmers here anyway so I don't think we need to worry about being oversubscribed with developers and whilst their aren't many PPC developers, past experience has shown the necessity can be a greater teacher (when I originally joined the UI team at work I had never worked with Motif).  

I am not expecting the code and design to be necessarily the best they can be for the platform because of this and people will no doubt look at the code and think "What the hell", I do that at work all the time but the advantage of an open source approach is that if someone can really do a better job they can make the change and assuming that it is approved for a merge on to the maiin release branch it can replace said code. I would suggest that whilst one main liaison between testers and  developers might be ok in a commercial environment with a full time team, we should probably have a backup because people will be doing this part time and it is very easy for whatever circumstances e.g. computer crashes etc. for people to be out of contact for long periods.

I agree that we will need to find someone who is willing to be a co-ordinator/project leader but one of the main requirements for this will be how much time they can devote, make no mistake as I am sure tundrwd knows leading a team can be a full time job in itself and can quickly start to eat into time which you had hoped to devote to other things.

As for the language thing I would have to disagree, most of my work is conducted on products which generally span sites in the UK and Italy (and Germany in the past). Whilst the fact that some of the Italian developers can't really speak English that well, it doesn't inhibit their programming contribution significantly anymore than my inability to speak Italian

Anyway as people have probably already guessed I am willing to give this a go, fishboy sounded very interested and by the looks of it heybear is definetely onboard. We can get a final list next week and go from there. Anyway I've got to go so I'll check back in here Monday.

Regards,

Morpheus