Expiration date for current (0.11.0+) releases?

[MadTxn]

@MadTxn :
gorgoroth already made an interesting point about your comment. Constructive criticism from contributing users such as myself is VERY different than mere "wining".

Additionally, you're forgetting one thing : although it is freeware as you mentioned, TP skinners such as myself, LT, rgb08, etc have invested MANY hours in testing, making new skins, thinking of suggestions, etc , so the least we could expect is some RESPECT from that time we invested and be informed of all conditions to use this so called freeware, and that INCLUDES the expiration dates.

Lightman, I understand your point.  I wasn't talking about you or the other people who were skinning, and I apologize for not making that clear.

And gogoroth, I can read just fine.  I just used your comments because they stuck in my head, and I've heard something similar from others.  Don't get your panties in a wad, or boxers in a bunch... whichever you may wear... ;P

That being said, it seems as if the MAJORITY of comments are NOT from people who contribute.  I'm sure it is frustrating for skinners to have to redo their work, however, it is reasonable to expect an expiration date.  As has been said numerous times, if you keep old versions around, people will be asking for support for bugs that have been fixed.

Besides, you wouldn't be skinning if you didn't enjoy it.  Aren't new challenges fun?

[fishboy]

My comment on this topic is...MOVE ON.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I think this continual ranting is getting out of control and is nonproductive.  I am sure srs is aware of the general sentiment by now.  Most of us now know that there IS an expiration date and that it probably should have been mentioned somewhere with each version (although I know nothing requiring him to divulge this).  

I have the greatest respect for all the skinners and can sympathize with their plight, as I too have invested many hours trying to keep the documentation up-to-date with each new version.  But hey, no one asked me to create it, and I can quite at any time should I choose to.  The same goes for skinning and continuing to use this program.  

It is HIS software, and he can do with it as he chooses.  We can only hope that he will listen to our requests, as he has done in the past, and follow thru on them.

[LightMan]

Lightman good to see you, I am glad other poeple are speaking there minds, I spoke my mind here:
http://www.dark-mojo.com/todayplus/viewtopic.php?t=1168&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=40
and you should see the responce i got from srs, toatal bull. I toataly agrre with you lightman, i still can't belive he didn't tell us. well It's good to here from you lightman. How's work going?
Lordtwisted

Hey LT

fine, still a very busy 2 weeks ahead (at least)
I hope srs changes a bit his approach towards this issue, but at this point, I agree with fishboy : personally, I've made my point and spoke my mind (which I haven't done thus far) so now it's time to move on and see what srs has to say about this and if he intends to change this policy or not.

[Scotty]

My 2 cents' worth. I think there are 2 issues. First, that there is an expiration date. Second (and it's separate, I think) - that many people  weren't aware of this fact. As noted above, many betas have exp dates - and the reasons for this are good. So, I don't think we should be complaining too much about the mere fact that the betas expire. BUT most betas I've tested have stated up-front that they will expire on dd-mm-yy.

This is a great program, and (until now) this board has been a positive place to visit. So, maybe srs could simply include a clear statement about the expiration date on upcoming releases - and we can all put this distraction behind us????

All the best.....................Scotty

[CUShane2001]

TODAY PLUS IS BETA SOFTWARE.
YOU SHOULD NOT RISK YOUR "PROFESSIONAL" WHATEVER ON BETA SOFTWARE.
IF YOU ARE WORRIED ABOUT IT NOT WORKING, YOU SHOULDN'T BE USING IT

whew.  sorry for the yelling, it's just that I can't stand people who whine.  Especially about FREE software.  Did I mention that it was BETA software?

The unfortunate thing about this statement is that it ignores the fact that this software already does more than any today plugin out there.  Well past what most of us might need actually.  The feature set is more than solid enough to have a "stable" release version while continuing with the updates as in a traditional software development model.  SRS has made an incredible piece of software but it's about time to quit calling it "Beta" and call it what it really is.  

As a software developer, if I waited until everything was completely perfect before calling software a "release" version, I would never release anything.

[jhollin1138]

Wow, I stay away from my computer and I miss a great discussion!    

I have a few things to say:

1) I am saddened to see we might be losing Lightman (and maybe arbitrajeu too?) over this issue.  If it is truly the case, I will be missing both of you and will see you over at Brighthand.  

2) Since SRS hasn't posted in sometime on this broad (SRS's last post to date), I fear my prediction in point 5 of this post is coming true.  I hope not, I love this program.  

[PowerZ]

Well, I also missed what has been going on for the last few days as I have been extremely busy with work.  While I have given some input on issues and some suggestions for features, compared to many of you I am more of a leech than a symbiote.  However I have a few points to make:

1.  As far as I can tell, everyone here thinks this program is at least the greatest thing since sliced bread.
2. We all like the cost.    
3. We all want to be able to use Today Plus for years to come.
4. Not many people knew about the expiration date.
5. Haven't seen nor heard from srs for some time.
6. Skinners and others have "donated" considerable time to this Beta test.
7. Now that we know about the expiration date(s), we can be prepared.

I also believe that srs didn't inform everyone was strictly an oversight and meant no ill-will.  From a programmer's standpoint it makes perfect sense to push people in the direction of a newer version.  All the arguments stated on this thread and the other mentioned regarding support of older versions, etc. prove it to me since I manage a departmental Tier 2 support organization for a major corporation.  I for one have become rather dependant on this product.

8. My fervent hope is that srs will continue development and release version 0.12.0 to public beta as well as versions beyond that.

[Darundal]

The current feature set of Todayplus is pretty good, but it could be expanded. Thus, I propose this: He make a version, with certain limitations and omissions (only 5 rss feeds, weather for 1 city only, no skin support, etc...) and release it as freeware. Then, he sells an enhanced edition (the other drawing them in) with nothing ommited and occasional updates, and both HAVING NO EXPIRATION DATE! Oh, and it would be nice if you had a choice between wizard OR config file.

[arbitrajeu]

It's been a long time since I posted here, and whilst I was aware, in passing, of the expiration date issue over New Year, I hadn't realised what a stir it was causing on the forums.

It's great to see the posts getting a little more circumspect in the last couple of days (great post, PowerZ).  Perhaps we stand a chance of getting somewhere at last.

Let's recap where we are, if you'll bear with me.  We have come a long way since July 2003.  We've got a hugely popular, very flexible and functional piece of beta software.  Until recently, we had a very constructive forum, consisting of a fair number of very active beta-testers cooperating with a hard-working, talented and committed developer.  Features were added regularly, which admittedly was a two-edged sword, but we were moving toward a stable set of functionality and something, most importantly, the developer was "happy" with.

Unfortunately, TodayPlus got a) very public and b) very popular.  A successful beta programme is normally much more limited than TodayPlus has become.  It is limited because the developer needs to be able to exercise control over releases and deal with "informed" defect reports and suggestions.  He can't support a growing number of versions or an endless stream of new users.  However, srs being srs, he saw that people enjoyed using his software and let it lie.  There were enough regulars on the forums to deal with the new users, and he had enough time to keep the releases moving along.  Unfortunately, this growing user base accentuated the problems when the minor glitch over the expiration date occurred.

The expiration date only affected releases prior to 0.11.0, which was released on 18 December, almost 2 weeks before New Year.  In that time the whole beta team should have upgraded.  Okay, so if we'd known about the expiration date we would have done so earlier, but that's a communication issue, something that's been universally hit-and-miss in the last 3 weeks.  The fact that there was an installed base of users out there not ready/willing to upgrade is an issue, but at every turn this software was described as "beta" and people should just be grateful they were able to be involved.  srs could, and perhaps should, have closed down the beta to those able to contribute fully.

So, why the expiration date?  Well, we've been so busy flaming and pointing the finger, we've not let srs explain why he set an expiration date.  Others have quoted the SK Remover example, so let's remember that some cad renamed Remover and sold it on Handango.  Sounds like a decent enough reason to put an expiry date on software, especially something as revolutionary as TodayPlus.  It could also have been to keep the installed based common, reducing the support requirements.  And it could have been the desire to make this beta software shareware some time - this is what all software houses do with their beta releases.

I understand the frustration that people didn't know about the expiration date, although I only really have sympathy for those who have contributed time and effort to the programme.  That definitely includes Lightman, LT, et al, who have been quite vociferous in their views on this subject.  However, I don't think that this gives any of us the right to shout and scream about this.  I invested many hours of my time, putting together my own (amateurish) skin and supporting many people through the forums.  However, my investment of time was trivial in comparison with srs' himself.  And I've heard the comments that people wouldn't have done so if they'd known about the expiration date.  Why not?  Until all this craziness, we still had a project, with new versions expected and the prospect of a stable release, possibly shareware, that we could all settle down with.  We find ourselves staring into the abyss that is 29th February 2004 because we've dug about 75% of the hole ourselves.  Instead of being grown-up about things we started shouting and screaming at the guy who gave his time to create this product.  If I were srs I'd probably not be too bothered about giving up more of my time to a bunch of ingrates.

I personally don't know where we go from here.  We appear to have successfully alienated the developer, who is probably spending his time looking to his studies instead of coming here to face a barrage of abuse.  Perhaps he'll come back once things have simmered down a little - I had more hope of that at the start of this thread than when I'd got to the end.

[cayouche]

I totally agree with arbitrajeu.

Like I mentionned on the other post, this is beta software and it's common sense to put an expiration date. Without expiration dates, someone could just get a copy (it's freeware), do some reverse engineering, change a few things and call it their own (i am part of another community 'http://www.ppx3k.com/', and yes, this has happened before...). This is prevented by adding an expiration date (or at least, it helps alot). Well, it doesn't really prevent such actions, it's just funny to see the 'stolen' version not working after the expiration date. The proof that it was stolen.

[joelw135]

I just wish that everyone would just stop the complaining, and realize that they have a great program. This is BETA and 99% of betas expire. Lets get back to the job at hand, and enjoy.

[LightMan]

However, I don't think that this gives any of us the right to shout and scream about this.  
Instead of being grown-up about things we started shouting and screaming at the guy who gave his time to create this product.  If I were srs I'd probably not be too bothered about giving up more of my time to a bunch of ingrates.

Hey buddy, nice to see you around

btw, I think that we DO have the right to complain, provided that complaint is done in a constructive way.

Personally, my biggest (and probably only REAL gripe) is that by not informing users of the expiration date, srs didn't realize that it had an impact on users and some of us, greatly rely on our ppcs to organize our work. Naturally, I'd love to keep using TP and I don't want to uninstall it because it expires, but I need it to be dependable, that's my main issue here.
The other part that bothers me is that he didn't "trust" that info about the expiration not even to the beta testers/skinners, which now gives me doubts about what he can hold back in future releases.
As it's been said previously, we really can't keep calling this program BETA forever...I mean, it's quite clear that it's WAY past beta phase...what we're doing now is updating a product, not a beta software as "beta" is usually known (not 100% functional, very buggy, etc)

Having said this, I do hope that srs can "extract" the positive part of this criticism and also understand that as a result of an already huge community that absolute LOVES this program and that appreciates the great work that has been done thus far.

Personally, I may have to start relying on a different software to handle my appointments/tasks, because I need something that doesn't expire on me and that I can depend on.

[Morpheus]

As it happened I upgraded from 10.2 between xmas and the New Year and so wasn't affected, however that was just luck as I had a day or two of spare time then. I think the main reason it proved such a problem for a lot of people was:
1. It was unexpected
2.  It happened at a time when people are generally busy socialising rather than using their computers

On the run up to xmas and the new year, peoples social life and shoppimg tend to take over and so they are less likely to update during this period because they have a lot on. Similarly a lot of people go away during this period and so are unable to update. If this had happened now rather than then I suspect that there would not have been such an outcry.

W.r.t. TP status as a beta, well when I first installed it near the end of the brighthand thread it was definiteley beta software, there were a number of bugs and basic functionality was being added regularly. Now things are different, TP IMHO reached a level of functionality that was complete enough and was stable enough in the 0.10.x releases as a result the emphasis shifted from beta testing to becoming an end-user product although its official status has remained at a beta state and people are using it like that. The skin makers have been producing ever more complex skins and individuals now spend a fair bit of time again customising these to their needs unfortunately this takes time. Lets say for example that someone made some time and spent a few hours customising their 10.2 skin on 31/12/03 only to find the next day that they would have to do it all over again, undertandably they may have been a bit PO'd because they didn't know about it .

I have been involved in beta test programs in the past some of which expired and some that didn't however all of these required people to specifically sign up for beta testing and then this restricted list of people were sent the beta exe and when errors were found reported these back to the author normally including relevant information about your setup, circumstances that lead to the problem etc. Whilst these forums are great most of what is happening now is not beta testing but end-user support and that is reflected in the types of posts.

As a programmer by profession I can appreciate whty SRS has adopted this approach and I don't think that he even considered the implications of not mentioning the expiry date but I think that realistically the continued beta testing can only go one of three ways.

1. Restrict future releases to the advanced test group currently in operation until he is ready to baseline it and produce a stable release. If he needs more people in this open up entry again based on people's configurations in order to try and get the best spread of hardware and software within this test group. This means that all other users won't be able to use it once the current version expires.

2. Declare the next release a milestone and release it with no expiration but  no support  once its successor has beem released. Have a big sticky thread in all thre forums stating that bug reports will only be considered when posted in the bug report forum and the latest version is being used and stick to this policy.

3. Continue with the current approach but risk less participation by skin makers such as Lightman and the potential loss of user base (beta testers) that would occur if the skins seized to be updated.

The fact that srs still is releasing the software as a beta obviously means that he is not happy with it yet to declare a stable release version and that is his prerogative however I know that personally I would almost never release any software if I waited until I was happy with it, because there is always something that you can improve or some new feature you can add. Sooner or later you just end up saying its good enough and I will continue tweaking it when possible but its time to send it out of the door.

TodayPlus is a great program and I will continue to use it  regardless of which of the three approaches above are adopted or if a stable release version is produced and have gained sufficient knowledge and patience to be able to tweak my skin of preference to keep it working should the author decide to stop working on it. My preference would obviously be a stable release version, but I think that if srs does wish to continue with beta testing for the time being then the milestone approach is the next best thing to a release as the problem with a release is that users tend to expect support.

just my tuppence worth,

Morpheus

[swm1605]

Hi guys -

Arbitrajeu, nice to have you back - I have just one thing to add to your post - ditto!!!

Lightman - love your skins for both TP and for Wisbar Advance but cannot agree with you on this topic.

 1. TP is beta software until the developer says its not, not when the user community feels it should be.

 2. In reading the forums there is certainly evidence of some issues with TP 0.11.0 that suggest that, great as it is, it is still not ready for prime time.

 3. Beta software is, by definition, not guaranteed in any way to fulfill your requirement of "but I need it to be dependable, that's my main issue here". You are experienced and intelligent enough to know this.

 4. TodayPlus didn't expire on you, version 0.10.x expired on you. TodayPlus in its current version continues to provide all the capabilities of 0.10.x (and more). Simply upgrading to the latest version didn't break any of the previous skin related functionality.

 5. TodayPlus doesn't "handle my appointments/tasks" beyond simply displaying them and prioviding access to the underlying POOM application (Pocket Outlook, PI or Agenda) which really does "handle" them. In fact, the POOM area is one area of TodayPlus which still needs some work and would benefit the most from a wide group of users beta testing the product.

 6. Perhaps a case could be made for the argument that srs should have announced the expiration date - but had we all upgraded to 0.11.0 when it was released we would never have even known the earlier version expired . Is srs then at fault, because the user base didn't take advantage of the newest version of the software?

In general:

Many users of this software seem to be under the impression that the development process for this incredible little piece of software is not just democratic, but collective (in the "collective farming" sense) as well. I prefer to view it as a benign dictatorship . srs does, and should continue to do, whatever he wants to do with the software. Hopefully, he has a few trusted advisors that can whisper words of advice in his ear every now and then. But the final call is his.

I have already agreed with Arbitrajeu's post in this thread but wish to emphasise my agreement with his sentiments and especially with this part:


Arbitrajeu wrote:

However, I don't think that this gives any of us the right to shout and scream about this.
Instead of being grown-up about things we started shouting and screaming at the guy who gave his time to create this product. If I were srs I'd probably not be too bothered about giving up more of my time to a bunch of ingrates.

I'm really getting tired of all of this carping about an expiration date on a version of the software that was outdated anyway. Again, if the user base had bothered to update to the later version in time, the expiration date would not even have been noticed. This incessant moaning about a ridiculously trivial item makes me groan every time I see a new post on the topic. I'm really starting to worry that srs has looked at all the griping and decided drop the whole thing, concentrating instead on developing his great software for the best user of all - himself.

Please, lets move on.

Regards

swm1605

[LightMan]

Again, if the user base had bothered to update to the later version in time, the expiration date would not even have been noticed.

Hey

As you said, we don't agree on this, so I will not bother to rebate your arguments about my position (btw, has this really become a LightMan issue when so many people are complaining?)

What you're forgetting is that upgrading to the newer versions isn't just a snap and can be very problematic at times.
The famous automatic-soft-reset-cycle that inevitably leads to a hard-reset has happened to me several times (and other users reported it here as well) when upgrading from 0.98 to 0.10 or from 0.10.1 to 0.10.2/or 0.11 , so it's really not THAT simply to upgrade. It takes time to make sure that one's skin is ready to be used with the new version.
For instance, I took my 0.10.2 skin and put it in 0.11 and the POOM simply didn't work. How's that for an upgrade motivation?

Of course, that's bound to happen with beta software and that's not the point here, it's just to make the point that upgrading one's skin to the newer versions isn't immediate, it isn't transparent and it can be VERY troublesome, so maybe that's why so many users stick with slightly older versions sometimes.
Again, this is beyond the point of this discussion. Then again, maybe not...

At this point, I do feel I can't bring anything else positive to this discussion (or TP as it stands now), so I will rest my case here